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Post by lea87 on Jun 20, 2010 14:19:33 GMT -5
Lacy was a waste of a spot no matter what went on between her and Mique.. And I'm not so sure Mique is someone I would look @ as a leader either..
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Post by jaye on Jun 20, 2010 14:59:21 GMT -5
then you need to relook at the playoff games after mique went down.... regardless of what some fans think of claw's emotional troubles.... players see it from another view.... and believe me.... they respect her....
and lacy had some good games.... she just wasn't consistent... kinda like other players we still have.... lacy is no more of a waste of a spot than the players we replaced her with.... no more than coco.... keuchanka.... raven.....
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Post by dream06 on Jun 20, 2010 15:49:55 GMT -5
Mique was a good leader but she doesnt fit into the Dream playing style. ATL loves to run, Mique likes a slower paced game where she can set things up. For some teams this works but not the ATL Dream...they are a fast break/transition team. As far as Lacy, anyone would of better besides her, sorry shes just as good as Shalee...whomp whomp whomp.
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Post by jaye on Jun 20, 2010 16:20:39 GMT -5
izi loves to run... angel loves to run and price loves to run.... sancho will run when necessary.... kelly perfers a set up game where she can see thing develop.... bales can't run at all.... leuchanka doesn't quite know where to run to.... and desouza will run til she gets tired and then she will take breaks....
point is players can adapt to the situation.... we ran when claw was here... and no team runs all the time.... you get into transition on missed baskets.... on made baskets you bring the ball down the court and set up.... it's ridiculous to run down court with all your might when the defense is down there waiting for you.... sometimes you run.... sometimes you set up..... and right now the dream playing style is to ride the back of the slashers until we start to make stupid mistakes because we have no stabilizing element.... not sure where you get that our style is a running game.... we set up far more than we run.... we run when we get the opportunity...
and any team that can only play in one style is doomed... teams adjust to what you're doing... and to be sucessfull you have to have the capacity to do something else.... players like bales and desouza aren't usually involved when we're in transition.... but when we bring the ball down after made shots.... we set them up....
and no offense.... but you really need to look at some of last years games.... the take on lacy was that it was so frustrating seeing the talent she had and she only showed it periodically.... she had several very.... very good games....
claw is gone.... it's a done deal.... but i'm sorry... the idea that any team wouldn't be better with a healthy claw on it is ridiculous.... and the idea that claw wouldn't be a greater aid than the players i mentioned is past ridiculous....
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Post by luvdagame on Jun 20, 2010 17:23:55 GMT -5
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Post by dream06 on Jun 21, 2010 6:42:06 GMT -5
ATL is a fastbreak/transition team. The first 6 games, thats how we won, transition points (steals and rebounds). When teams make us play half court its a HIGH chance we will loose (take our 4 loses and look at them again, we never got into the running game). You are EXACTLY right, a one dimensional team is a set-up for doom. People have started to realize that about us and Mercury (hence why Mercury has lost so much, people are learning that what a running team HATES is another running team). We have to start learning how to play the half court game because when the pace is slow it hurts us (well mix it up because our fast paced game is really good).
And our fast breaks points dont come from "running down the court with all our might when the defense is down there", they come from us BEATING most (not all but most) of the defense down the court and scoring easy (teams are starting to learn that though and they are protecting back court well). Erica runs the court well for a center, they were just complimenting on how in shape she is this year (shes not the fastest but she runs the court).
No one said Claw was a bad play, she is a good player BUT not in our system. Its like Dupree going to the Mercury (worst decision of her life, if she would of stayed with the sky this year, they would of been a forced to be reckoned with), she is not a fast paced player and it shows, Bonner is killing her as far a production because Bonner RUNS! The reason why we beat the Mercury the first game this season is because we beat them at there own game (A run and gun game). Claw fits in really well with the Silver Stars because of their system. They have alot of older players who know the game and know that its not a foot race the whole game (they know when to run and when to set-up, ATL is not there yet, they just like to run). So, NO EVERY team would not benefit from a healthy Claw, it depends on the system that the team plays (example, Claw couldnt go to the Mercury and really do much (the Mercury system is similar to ours minus that they actually have a descent coach).
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Post by jaye on Jun 21, 2010 7:20:08 GMT -5
i never said that we run down court with all our might when the defense is down there.... i said that isn't what transition gaming is....it was a statement meant to show that every team has to play a halfcourt offense.... and that to be successful you must have players that can flourish in the half-court.... you can't just count on running.... in other words.... you must have players that can also set up like claw.... look at the celtics... they have players that get out in transition... and the have players that flourish in the half-court.... btw... i'm not sure what games you've been watching that gives you the idea that dupree and claw can't run when they want to....
pheonix is losing... partially because they're one dimensional.... as are we.... but mainly because they play no defense.... dupree's numbers are very good..... and pho scores enough to win.... but not when they can't stop anyone.... to use pho as an example where claw wouldn't succeed is a bad one because apparently they need something.... it's not like they're all that successful with what they've got...
i disagree with you... have stated why.... lets just leave it at that...
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Post by dream06 on Jun 22, 2010 13:47:32 GMT -5
Well...I think we agree on somethings (we just are wording it differently) but I dont agree that EVERY player is made for ANY team. Teams have systems for a reason, either you fit into it or you dont. CLAW and DUPREE should be on a team that runs little (when the opportunity calls for it, sometimes run but dont take all the fast break opportunities) and sets up half court offense MOSTLY. This is there strength, of course Claw and Dupree can run up and down the court a little....A LITTLE...they are in the pros but they are not transisiton players...example: with a transition play, who would you passed the ball too, CASTRO or CLAW (answer honestly). If its not tip off, the beginning of the game, or Claw just getting in, 9 times out of 10 she will get caught on a fast break (by a descent guard). Example 2: Bonner or Dupree in the open court (honestly). But if you switch it up and say in half court offense wHO would you choose (Castro or Claw and Bonner or Dupree), the answer would be different. Look at the game against Seattle when Claw was guarding Cash, she had to ask for help on fast break defense several times (and they started out at the same place, Cash is just faster (and Cash is not this amazingly fast person)). I do think that in order to be successful in the FUTURE you have to know how to play both styles (thats why seattle is so leathal, they play fast paced and have a excellent half court offense/there coach knows hows to coach/a veteran point guard who knows when to push and when to slow doWN.
I am one where I think DEFENSE wins games not offense. I think the WNBA every years is starting to take hold of that and that is why high power offensive team (that dont play defense) are starting to have trouble. Pheonix defense is HORRIBLE I do agree but there defense was HORRIBLE last year too (lol). They are just a high scoring team and now people are trying to put more defense on them and run with them. If you are a running team and the other team runs, something has to give. Usually its defense.
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Post by jaye on Jun 22, 2010 15:03:52 GMT -5
swin is pretty d**n fast....
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Post by cardman on Jun 23, 2010 2:07:07 GMT -5
I dont agree that EVERY player is made for ANY team. Teams have systems for a reason, either you fit into it or you dont. I don't think the point was that any player can fit into a system. I think the point was that players adapt situationally during a game. No, not every player is a good fit on every team, but SOME players fit any and all teams. These are players who have an understanding of the game, leadership abilities, communication skills, amd the ability to check your ego WHEN NECESSARY. Holdsclaw is definately one of these players. Add Lisa Leslie, Jennifer Gillom, Cynthia Cooper, Kara Lawson... These boards and my computer have been giving me fits for over a week. I'm surprised I've gotten this far.
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Post by dream06 on Jun 23, 2010 7:57:15 GMT -5
I guess thats the great thing about Message boards...you can agree to disagree (lol)! Most of the player on that list (people that can adapt to any team) I agree with and would probably add a few more too! But Claw and Kara (NO!)...Sorry...Kara may have been GREAT in the past years but Renee is killing and WILL be starting PG by the end of the season (if the coach can go with what he knows and not with what people will say). Kara numbers are not impressive at all, yeah yeah yeah, people are going to say "well she gives great leadership", you can only go off of that for so long (example: Jennifer Lacy (granted Kara is better than her...lol)). Renee is a good leader, defender, scorer, and team player. Maybe its just because of how I think because Im not afraid of change and know that just because you are young and NEW to things does not make you "wet behind the ear" all the time. For example: Tina Charles, leading rebounder, someone that understands that rebounding is about positioning and how not to foul!). It seems like alot of people think that ALL rookies dont know what they are talking about and teams will not survive with out these 10 yr vets on the team.
Alot of people might not like me after this statement...sorry, charge it to my head and not my heart (lol). TIMES ARE CHANGING AND THIS OLD BASKETBALL PLAYING IS NOT GOING TO WORK. If you look at how alot (not all) of the older players play, they play a very relaxed, control, easy going game (keeping it straight fundamentals). This style of play is very effective and gets the job done ubt can be boring (which explains some of the lack of interest (not all but SOME) by the public back then. The new generation is starting to realize that yeah, it needs to be controlled but we need to move a little faster, play with a little more swag, and evolve if we want to continue to get this new generation attention. Thats one of the reasons why people LOVE Dianna T, Pondexter, Angel, etc., they do the extra things. As the years go by this "old school" play will be non-existent, just like it happened in the NBA. When Lisa dunked, the world was like WOW! Now you have Brittany Griner who dunks all the time. Cross overs are starting to get more complex and the razzle dazzle affect is stating to become more popular (E. Prince).
Thanks for this good message convo! Not too many of my friends watch or care about womens basketball so its good that I can have people to talk to (even if they dont agree all the time)!
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