d3murf
Shooting Gaurd
Posts: 83
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Post by d3murf on Jul 31, 2009 0:00:00 GMT -5
Yup I was there happy as all get out that my girl Angel was getting so much PT (Ketia Swanier was as well lol), even though Izzy was balling as well! When the Mercury are on they are unstoppable, but when they're off that horrible Defense they play doesn't help them at all. Dream created a ton of turnovers off of silly Mercury passing. Dream crashed the boards really nice! Rebounds will keep you in the game 9/10. Also Diana was mad aggresive towards then end of the blowout!!! She was fouling hard and sending messages!!!! Oh YEah Everyone showed up to play from top to bottom! Speaking of bottom (lol), yo Angel if you read this--look me up on myspace babe! We're bound to run into each other eventually!!! lol www.myspace.com/d3murf
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Post by jaye on Jul 31, 2009 8:53:15 GMT -5
phoenix is the team that all the "experts" at rebkell claimed that we weren't in their class....we can beat anyone at all on any given night.....the reason many of us don't seem satisfied with our "winning twice as many games as last year" is that with the team we've got we should be a lock to make the playoffs.....as it is....we've lost games that we definitely should have won....and it places us in 5th place....just outside of a playoff berth..... we've got time to make that up.....but the closer it gets to the end......if we're not closing in on that last slot....you're going to hear a lot more complaining.... man....of all the games for live access to act a fool in.....why did it have to be the one in which we looked like world champions..... great game ladies.....great game.....
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Post by trueblue72 on Jul 31, 2009 9:12:57 GMT -5
You don't have to sell me on Latta. I am a Tarheel. And I bought season tickets AFTER we drafted Latta for that reason. And I TOTALLY agree she should not have been cut. BUT......NO ONE CAN DENY. She is playing better basketball now that she is back and coming off the bench. It is working for our team. What is the mind set that YOU HAVE TO START TO BE EFFECTIVE??? You have to have players that can come in and give a LIFT to the team. If you had ALL your best players start...then every single time you had a sub the level of play would go DOWN and it would be detrimental to the team and the game. But are fortunate to have 2 players in Angel and Latta that come in and the level of our team RISES....that is almost UNHEARD OF...we are fortunate for that....it's all about chemistry of the team that is on the floor...and it is working....SO LEAVE IT ALONE. ivory thrived last year as a starter....who's to say that she wouldn't be playing even better if she were starting....she's a talented player....she's going to show in either situation....so how can anyone possibly say that it's because she's coming off of the bench.... point is she deserved not to have been cut.....and she deserves to start....cutting her to start with was a slap in the face.....keeping her coming off of the bench when it's obvious to the world that she's the better player is a further slap in the face.....and goes back to what i said earlier in the season about mm not admitting her mistake..... i admire ivorys attitude cause if it were me.....i'd be pissed and nurturing some serious dislike for mm.....
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Post by trueblue72 on Jul 31, 2009 9:16:36 GMT -5
JAYE SAID "I admire ivorys attitude cause if it were me.....i'd be pissed and nurturing some serious dislike for mm....."
Somehow we know that about you.....not everyone needs their ego stroked by being a starter.
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Post by jaye on Jul 31, 2009 9:36:17 GMT -5
i think i've said this to you before.....you don't like my posts....don't read them....but as for you telling me what to leave alone.....you know where you can put that suggestion....you voiced an opinion about latta starting.....i simply voiced different one....
and it's obvious that you know little of playing the game.....a starters position is a coveted accomplishment in basketball.....and one that carries a certain prestige among players.....just like losing that spot is a dreaded demotion.....some players come to accept it.....but if you think players like it....then you seriously don't know squat about basketball players.....
and i'd say that anyone except for mm apologists would admit that the way ivory has been treated in this whole fiasco would piss off most players....and did it ever occur to you that if you had your best players on the floor to start with....you wouldn't always be in the situation of needing someone to come in and give a lift.....and again.....ivorys' not playing any better than she was when she was starting last year.....as for it working.....we're 2-2 in our last 4.....
and lastly.....you don't know jack about me....and i've got a suggestion for you.....there are plenty of other people complaining about this.....tell them what THEY should be doing for a change.....cause i'm not interested....if you voice an opinion on a matter.....you've got to expect counter opinions.....
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Post by tichayo on Jul 31, 2009 9:53:14 GMT -5
i admire ivorys attitude cause if it were me.....i'd be pissed and nurturing some serious dislike for mm..... Uhh, Jaye -- aren't you ALREADY "pissed and nurturing", etc. etc. ?
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Post by jaye on Jul 31, 2009 9:56:00 GMT -5
i admire ivorys attitude cause if it were me.....i'd be pissed and nurturing some serious dislike for mm..... Uhh, Jaye -- aren't you ALREADY "pissed and nurturing", etc. etc. ? pretty much... ivory's too nice to.....
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Post by tichayo on Jul 31, 2009 10:32:24 GMT -5
[sigh!]
As usual, I see good points on both sides of the latest Jaye/Trueblue72 disagreement.
Makes it awfully hard to take sides!
Philosophically, I agree with Trueblue72, and I like the way it's been working out. We have starters, but we don't play them the whole game -- in fact, has anyone noticed that it's not just Ivory but Angel and Michelle (and more) who have been playing better than before in a "come-off-the-bench" role? Lately, we do not see a consistent decline in the quality of play when the starters sit down. I think that's a good thing! I think it should be a coach's objective to have the best possible team on the court for every minute of the game. Unless your best 5 can play 40 minutes without any loss of effectiveness, this will require that the bench be as strong, or almost as strong, as the starters.
This also seems to be what John Whisenant is trying to put back together at Sacramento. Check the stats on yesterday's Monarchs victory over the Silver Stars. Becky Hammon got 38 points and six assists; while Sophia Young got 29 points and 11 rebounds -- but the Monarchs won 101-93. Powell got 21 points, but no other Monarch got above 14, but 4 were in double figures, including one non-starter (Maiga-Ba) and one starter who almost never scores in double figures (Penicheiro!!!) Two of the players who got the most PT (Maiga-Ba and Lawson) were not starters. The two top (+/-) players were not starters (again, Maiga-Ba and Lawson). And the announcers noted that Whisenant used everyone available (Brunson did not suit up), substituted freely, and allowed players to take themselves out of the game without risking their opportunities for playing time. In return, he expected all of them (not just the starters) to go all-out all of the time. It's taking him a while to get the team where he wants them to be instead of where Boucek wanted them to be, but if yesterday wasn't a fluke, he's getting them there. (Watch Sacramento for the rest of the season!)
This is just intuition on my part, but I think a solid team with few or no real stars but that plays solidly AS a team will often beat a team reliant on stars; and will usually do so if the two rosters are anywhere nearly equal in talent. And when I say "that plays solidly as a team" I do not restrict that to just the starters.
So in general, I like the idea of letting some of the most effective players come off the bench. Recently, it's been sparing us the dreaded "second quarter blues" so typical of earlier in the season, which we suffered when the starters rested and subs played most of the second quarter.
That said, philosophy is one thing and reality is quite another. Basketball is not played with cardboard counters on a tabletop or with icons and avatars on a computer monitor. It's played with real human beings, who are governed by all kinds of emotions at various times. Making someone feel less valued and less competent seems quite likely to have an adverse effect on their self-confidence and accordingly on the quality of their play. Worse, it might make them feel at odds with their team. (But again, I don't have data for this, just more intuition, which might be nothing but another word for "prejudice".) Unless Jaye is putting us on, he has a wealth of experience playing AND coaching, and not only does this give him great knowledge, it gives him something else (if I might use a word currently on some people's "politically incorrect" list): empathy. He knows, probably from long and hard experience, what it FEELS like to be benched after having started, to earn a stellar notice but not to receive it, to feel dissed and unappreciated. He also knows how players' having such feelings can affect not only their own performance, but the dynamics and performance of an entire team. (I hope he knows at least as well how the opposite feels too!) I think that counts.
But it's also true that not everyone feels the same way about the same things. And it's also true that some people can feel amply rewarded when their contributions are celebrated and recognized by some means other than by getting a start. And I expect it's true that some people are motivated less by recognition or the lack thereof than by intrinsic factors, and care less about the approval of others than about their own.
And dare I suggest that in the aggregate (saying nothing at all about specific individuals) , there might be some differences among men's teams and women's teams in a matter such as this?
To resolve these in my own mind, I guess the bottom line has to be performance -- TEAM performance. And by that standard, I think Trueblue72 has the better of it this time, so far. Taking all things into consideration, MM's policy seems to be working, at least for now.
Sorry for getting so verbose. I'll shut up now.
For now.
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Post by tichayo on Jul 31, 2009 10:44:29 GMT -5
Let's not forget one other outcome of last night's game. Nextivorylatta should have had a FABULOUS birthday! What a great present to get on your 16th! Not only did the Dream have an enormous win -- maybe the best in their history --, but Latta did well too! Congratulations, NextIL! And Thanks! Maybe your presence DID have an inspiring effect! (Does this mean we should all chip in and buy her season tickets?)
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Post by trueblue72 on Jul 31, 2009 11:03:37 GMT -5
Jaye....like you said to me....likewise...I was a shorter sized PG for 12 years...and a 3 sport stand out....you aren't the only one that has ever graced the court or a playing field. It hurt my feelings when after 14 years of SS and 2nd base I eventually was moved to 3rd because of my lateral movement had decreased...it happens but chemistry wise made our team stronger. And I agree....starting is prestigious and coveted...but Latta was cut for a reason unknown to us...and as a Tarheel that has followed her since her freshman year at UNC, I am completely OKAY with this situation now. And no where did I say SHE LIKES IT...I just said whatever the emotion is that is attached with it....having something to prove or being the savior...IT'S WORKING. And Ivory IS COMPLETELY playing better than she did last year as a starter. In less minutes she avgs more points, less turnovers and is more aggressive on defense. You are COMPLETELY wrong in that assessment. If it were up to you we would have BALL HOG Betty and Latta still starting and we would have just won our first game of the year again. It is obvious.... that maybe your assessment of your own experience is a little over inflated seeing is how we are tied for 4th in the leauge and doing leaps and bounds better. Again...I don't think MM is a good coach...but as the GM she made the right player moves in a short amount of time to completely revamp the system. And outside of having a legitimate outside shooter to go into the mix...we are doing alright. We could be in 2nd had we closed out 4 or 5 of those close games. But that also comes in time with team chemistry and learning who can get it done in the last minutes of the game. We had 3 weeks to practice with a completely new team before the year started.
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Post by jaye on Jul 31, 2009 11:15:28 GMT -5
it's nowhere as consistent as you suggest.....we've won the last two games....but we've had a score of games where the second squad did nothing....where everyone was complaining about mm's platooning of players....about who should start and who should get minutes.....complaining about the taking out of starters when they were being effective.....now with two games won....only two out of the last four....all of a sudden it's a successful strategy??.....it's just as likely that it's a coincidence.....last night we caught a good team on a particularly bad night.....a bad night where we just happened to be playing pretty good.....
when you win everybody acts as if they're happy and that things are being done right.....by the opinions given i guess phoenix would have given us a better game if cappie and diana didn't start....but came off of the bench to give them a lift.....teams look to have a good bench.....and players on that bench that can give them good minutes.....but no team is going to purposely keep one of their best players on the bench with the purpose of having a good player there in case you need them.....you hit the floor with your best....if you don't have players on the bench that can give you good minutes to rest your starters.....then perhaps you should consider another gm.....
players that win best sixth man honors are inevitably rewarded by being promoted to starting status.....
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Post by cardman on Jul 31, 2009 13:23:51 GMT -5
I don't have the experience of either Jaye or Trueblue, but I do know that Jaye has it all over you, Trueblue.
There are coaches that can coach and those who cannot. There are GMs who make all the right moves, and those who do not.
In no sport should anyone hold both positions.
In my opinion, MM has made 2 completely correct moves: 1. Signing Chamique Holdsclaw 2. Bringing Ivory Latta back (although she totally blew it out you know where when she waiver her in the first place)
There is no excuse for Ivory not to be starting. The one I have seen over and over, is; last year...... This is a new day with a revamped roster. If you can't at least TRY putting your best 5 on the floor and seeing what the outcome will be, then you are an incompetent.
The myth of Shalee's intangibles holds no water. She may be a great player, but not in this system. You cannot force a square peg into a round hole. With the smaller rosters, you have easy access to any number of players looking for a job, and if Shalee is as great as her followers seem to think she is, then surely, there is some team out there who would love to give the Dream a player they want/need for her.
A few wins makes everybody happy until the next loss. Consistent winning brings satisfaction. We should not be settling for mediocrity.
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Post by nextivorylatta on Jul 31, 2009 14:19:37 GMT -5
Let's not forget one other outcome of last night's game. Nextivorylatta should have had a FABULOUS birthday! What a great present to get on your 16th! Not only did the Dream have an enormous win -- maybe the best in their history --, but Latta did well too! Congratulations, NextIL! And Thanks! Maybe your presence DID have an inspiring effect! thanks and i had an awesome sweet 16 im going to tell yall bout it in another post... and that wud be great lol (season tickets) the only thing is i live in NC...long drive
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Post by deedee12 on Jul 31, 2009 18:42:21 GMT -5
Tichayo & Trueblue72:
Were you guys separatred at birth from MM? The woman's 'policy' is purely 'do as I say' with nothing substantiating her decisions!!! She apparently could't coach her way out of a box. Jaye & Cardman, guys, keep speaking the truth because it will always prevail over ignorance. Are these Shalee fans in denial or are the rose-colored glasses causing them to see her as the new 'great white hope'? I went there. Ivory Latta, Angel McCoughtry, Tamera Young... should not even be spoken in the same breath with Shalee. Shalee seems to be a wonderful person, but she should have red-shirted herself at Kansas and played a 5th year. Her skills are simply not an asset to the Dream. But, the real problem here is MM. GM who appoints herself as head coach... To steal a quote from Tavis Smiley; 'what I know is this: if MM continues her tyranny as coach for the Dream, season ticket sales will drop quicker than the New Years Eve ball in Time Square. Atlanta cannot afford to see that happen.
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Post by trueblue72 on Jul 31, 2009 21:12:45 GMT -5
Tichayo & Trueblue72: Were you guys separatred at birth from MM? The woman's 'policy' is purely 'do as I say' with nothing substantiating her decisions!!! She apparently could't coach her way out of a box. Jaye & Cardman, guys, keep speaking the truth because it will always prevail over ignorance. Are these Shalee fans in denial or are the rose-colored glasses causing them to see her as the new 'great white hope'? I went there. Ivory Latta, Angel McCoughtry, Tamera Young... should not even be spoken in the same breath with Shalee. Shalee seems to be a wonderful person, but she should have red-shirted herself at Kansas and played a 5th year. Her skills are simply not an asset to the Dream. But, the real problem here is MM. GM who appoints herself as head coach... To steal a quote from Tavis Smiley; 'what I know is this: if MM continues her tyranny as coach for the Dream, season ticket sales will drop quicker than the New Years Eve ball in Time Square. Atlanta cannot afford to see that happen. Why i constantly get clumped in with MM is confusing to me....I DON'T AGREE WITH HER COACHING EITHER....but...the fact remains the same....we are much better than we were. She still is NOT A GOOD COACH....I have not EVER EVER EVER disputed that....but I speak what i see...and that is Ivory plays better coming off the bench for whatever reason that is....the numbers don't lie. And I believe Shalee should be our 3rd string PG...not our first. I just also don't believe in coming on here crying everyday criticizing every player on the team that is not our FAVORITE player and smashing the program day in and day out....it helps us none. I am done.
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